{"id":99099,"date":"2016-06-22T10:30:06","date_gmt":"2016-06-22T14:30:06","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/?p=99099"},"modified":"2016-06-23T13:34:42","modified_gmt":"2016-06-23T17:34:42","slug":"dialogues-an-interview-with-aaron-stern-and-jordan-sullivan","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/2016\/06\/22\/dialogues-an-interview-with-aaron-stern-and-jordan-sullivan\/","title":{"rendered":"Dialogues: An Interview with Aaron Stern and Jordan Sullivan"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"Rebecca<\/a>

Rebecca Norris Webb, Blackbirds<\/em>, 2006, color photograph. From the series \u201cMy Dakota,\u201d 2005\u20132011.<\/p><\/div>\n

A few weeks before the end of 2014, Aaron Stern<\/a> and Jordan Sullivan<\/a> wrote me to request permission to reprint the poem \u201cMy Gift to You,\u201d by Roberto Bola\u00f1o, which was published in our Summer 2012<\/a> issue. Stern and Jordan, both of whom are photographers, had recently opened a small space called 205-A<\/a> in which they hosted group photography exhibitions with the aim of creating an artistic community in dialogue. They had also begun publishing small-run books; \u201cMy Gift to You\u201d was intended for a book pairing images by nine photographers with the work of nine poets. Titled <\/em>36 Photographs & 20 Poems, the slim volume is published under the heading <\/em>Dialogues 01, indicating future installments in a series.<\/em><\/p>\n

The book appeared in limited quantity in 2015. Its dimensions are slightly smaller than those of the <\/em>Review, and its pale pink covers are unassuming: with only the title and a white rectangle on the front, suggesting an empty frame, it has the austerity of a classic \u00c9ditions Grasset cover. Stern, who lives in New York, spoke with me in person; I corresponded with Sullivan, who resides in Los Angeles, over e-mail. The assembled conversation returns again and again to the linked ideas of collaboration, correspondence, and correspondences.
<\/em><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/em><\/p>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

The epigraph is from Arseny Tarkovsky\u2019s \u201cOn the Bank<\/a>,\u201d a sublime and foreboding poem about the natural world. The book\u2019s opening photograph, by Rebecca Norris-Webb, depicts an army of brown, bowing sunflowers and a plague of birds and echoes Tarkovsky\u2019s line about \u201cthe terrible, vegetable sense of self.\u201d Why did you choose to begin this way?<\/p>\n

SULLIVAN<\/p>\n

The poem explores the moment when one realizes nature has a language, though that language is incomprehensible. This realization makes the world both troubling and beautiful, and perhaps the world made more sense to him before he was able to contemplate it, before he was fully conscious, before he \u201ccounted life in years.\u201d This narrative speaks to this large cosmic complexity, and I think it makes for a nice ground from which the rest of the poems and pictures in the book can grow. Essentially, this book is an exploration of the world at large. There isn\u2019t a concrete thesis or message we\u2019re trying to convey. We were more interested in presenting poems and images we found interesting and\u00a0organizing them in a way where meaning could be generated from their interaction. Whatever that meaning is, it will be different for each person. <\/p>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

What was the initial impetus for the book?<\/p>\n

STERN<\/p>\n

I read a poem by David Wagoner in The New Yorker <\/em>in 2010, \u201cFollowing a Stream<\/a>.\u201d It reminded me of someone I had a tumultuous relationship with and also of my process in making the photographs for I Woke Up in My Clothes<\/em>, where I spent a lot of time in the car driving aimlessly, waiting for the light to be right. I found David\u2019s poem at\u00a0a time when\u00a0I felt very lost, and the transition at the beginning of the poem from \u201cDon\u2019t do it<\/em>, the guidebook says,\u00a0\/ if you\u2019re lost<\/em>\u201d to \u201cThen it goes on \/ to talk about something else,\u00a0\/ taking the easy way out,\u00a0\/ which of course is what water does \/ as a matter of course always\u201d lifted the cloud I had hovering above me.<\/p>\n

It took me about six months, but I tracked him down and asked him if could I use his poem in my book, and he said yes. At the time, he was about eighty-five, and he wrote me back in five minutes. Most people take days to write back over e-mail, and here\u2019s a pretty famous poet in his mideighties writing me back right away. And we have written each other ever since. His e-mails are poetic.\u00a0<\/p>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

What have you and he corresponded about?<\/p>\n

STERN<\/p>\n

Life, everything. When the book was published, there was a small show and a dinner and it all felt really good. But then the moment was over\u2014the book\u2019s done, it\u2019s out, you\u2019ve celebrated, people have written about it, it\u2019s sold, but then it\u2019s gone. It\u2019s a project you\u2019ve worked on for a number of years and agonized over, and now you feel a little deflated. I told David what I was feeling, and he wrote me something that blew me away. He told me that when he was in his early twenties, he asked the English poet Stephen Spender if he were marooned on a desert island would he still write? And Spender said no. David said he would, even if he had to do it with sand and a stick. He said he\u2019d published thirty-two books, but sometimes it has felt like mailing postcards over a cliff. That made me feel okay. It\u2019s sad but comforting to hear that. I picked myself up and started reading more of his work and more of other people\u2019s work, and that led me to want to include more poetry in my books.<\/p>\n

\"Photographs<\/a>

A spread from the book, showing Aaron Stern\u2019s Polaroid & Transfer, Los Angeles<\/em>, 2013.<\/p><\/div>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

How did the other poets come to be included?<\/p>\n

STERN<\/p>\n

I met Will Schutt\u2014he\u2019s a family friend of a good friend of mine\u2014and told him about David. Will introduced us to Tom Sleigh for the last book we did, A Form of Love<\/em>, which was a book of war photography. Tom gave us a poem for it. And the four of us\u2014Tom, Will, Jordan, and me\u2014corresponded about this idea of pairing poems and photographs, and Tom and Will loved it and agreed to help pick poems and get other people involved. We all sent things back and forth over e-mail\u2014we sent them photos, they sent us poems. I would not have discovered Alan Shapiro, Michael Collier, or Rose McLarney without Will and Tom\u2019s help.<\/p>\n

SULLIVAN<\/p>\n

David introduced us to some wonderful poets, and it was a chain reaction from there. Of course there were other poems, like the Bola\u00f1o one, that we just knew had to be in there somehow.\u00a0<\/p>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

Was there a guiding principle in determining which photographs would go with which poems?<\/p>\n

STERN<\/p>\n

David\u2019s went with mine because of our relationship. A lot of the book came together because of coincidence. For instance, when I told Tom about who we had picked photography-wise, he said, That\u2019s amazing, because I spoke at Alex Webb\u2019s father\u2019s funeral\u2014I knew him well and I know Rebecca and Alex. Rebecca felt strongly about being paired with Tom, and their work goes well together. That kind of connection is difficult to plan out.<\/p>\n

SULLIVAN<\/p>\n

The process was intuitive, testing the chemistry of two different artists, putting this with that and seeing what happens. Some of the poems and pictures work together on a literal\u00a0level, and others contrast. It was a lot of trial and error, and also working with the poems and photographs available to us. We are a small press, so resources are limited.<\/p>\n

\"Alex<\/a>

Alex Webb, San Ysidro, California<\/em>, 1979, color photograph.<\/p><\/div>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

There\u2019s a wonderful tension between Alex Webb\u2019s photograph of two Hispanic men, possibly immigrants, being arrested in a paradasiacal field and Will Schutt\u2019s poem about being tongue-tied in the paradise that wealth produces or that wealth evokes.<\/p>\n

STERN<\/p>\n

The poem immediately reminded me of a David Wagoner poem called \u201cUnder Arrest<\/a>.\u201d It was published in The Paris Review<\/em>. We didn\u2019t use it, but it helped with the process and it\u2019s what made me want to include Alex\u2019s work. David said he used to do some local reporting about crime and court cases, and that\u2019s what gave him the idea for the poem. I remember part of it by heart\u2014<\/p>\n

\n

It means stand still. It means
stay just as sweet as you are
and where you are and don\u2019t do
anything you were doing
before or might have planned
to do or be anywhere
else you might have in mind
and you\u2019re wrong and have lost your chance
to keep your hands to yourself
as long as it may please
the court or its officers
who have their eyes on you
and all yours.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

I saw Alex\u2019s photograph of\u00a0the two Mexicans being arrested while trying to cross the border, arms raised in the air in a beautiful field of flowers, helicopter hovering in the background\u2014and immediately thought of David\u2019s poem. It was too literal for the book, but it sparked something and energized our concept.<\/p>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

Were you hoping to produce certain resonances between the poetry and the photographs?<\/p>\n

SULLIVAN<\/p>\n

We\u00a0wanted them to illuminate each other, and I also designed the book so that the pictures and poems are sort of drifting off the page\u2014not much is centered\u2014and I left a lot of white space around the elements. In that way, the poems and pictures become destinations, and the book is a kind of atlas. It\u2019s a world, this world, and it\u2019s at once beautiful, mysterious, dark, and troublesome.\u00a0<\/p>\n

\"Ed<\/a>

Ed van der Elsken, from Love on the Left Bank<\/em>, 1956.<\/p><\/div>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

The Van der Elsken photographs of\u00a0the couples kissing, which close the book,\u00a0are the most straightforward and perhaps the most readily narrative. They stand out from the other work in that way. Do feel there\u2019s a difference?
<\/strong><\/p>\n

SULLIVAN<\/p>\n

The book needed a literal and touching element like the Van der Elsken to punctuate it. As complex as life is, at the end of the day hopefully we can all find that moment of love and passion, which that picture captures. Also, selfishly, I love Ed van der Elsken,\u00a0so I just really wanted him in this book. I particularly love the book that last picture came from, Love on the Left Bank<\/em>, which also explores the intersection of text, narrative fiction, and photography.<\/p>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

And you put it with Bola\u00f1o\u2019s poem \u201cMy Gift to You.\u201d<\/p>\n

STERN<\/p>\n

We got a selection of Van der Elsken photos and that poem at the end of the process, and they really felt like they fit together. You know those relationships where they don\u2019t work out because they\u2019re so intense, they crash and burn, and maybe it\u2019s a month, maybe it\u2019s two years, but they\u2019re fiery? That Bola\u00f1o poem made me think of that kind of relationship. \u201cMy gift to you will be an abyss\u201d\u2014the poem\u2019s a little mean, but beautiful.<\/p>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

Did you want to limit the length and size of the book?<\/p>\n

STERN<\/p>\n

Jordan wanted it to feel physically like a small book of poetry. There\u2019s a French publisher, Centre National de la Photographie, that has a series photography books called Photo Poche that were about this size\u2014Lee Friedlander, Daid\u014d Moriyama, Josef Koudelka. They were the kind of photography book you could take on the subway. Jordan and I both had those books in mind\u2014we said it at the same time.<\/p>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

It\u2019s more intimate than a coffee-table book.<\/p>\n

STERN<\/p>\n

And less pressure. If you go into Dashwood and pick up an Alex Webb book, which\u2019ll probably be $250, or a Josef Koudelka book, which would also be expensive, you want to turn the pages delicately. I think that\u2019s why Jordan picked uncoated, off-white paper that has some tooth to it\u2014<\/strong>it felt more like a novel, something accessible, which is what we wanted. The format we chose makes it easier to get into.<\/p>\n

\"Photograph<\/a>

Photograph by Jordan Sullivan.<\/p><\/div>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

Did the title come after you\u2019d completed the book?\u00a0<\/p>\n

SULLIVAN<\/p>\n

Yes, Dialogues<\/em> came after we had finished. We really wanted to leave the project untitled. We knew we would be making more volumes of poetry-photo books, so we wanted a title that could act as umbrella for the whole project.\u00a0<\/p>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

On what level, or in what way, do you imagine the photographs and poems are in dialogue?\u00a0<\/p>\n

STERN<\/p>\n

People ask me to explain my photographs, and it\u2019s really hard to do. I don\u2019t want to write a statement about my work because I want people to look at the images and just feel something. When you hear a song, you might think of your own life, even though the songwriter is probably writing about something completely different, but you apply it to yourself, and I think it\u2019s similar with photos. The images are trying to tell a narrative, and Jordan and I want people to interpret them their own way. Poetry can help do this in a way a statement can\u2019t.<\/p>\n

SULLIVAN<\/p>\n

If you read a poem then look at the picture next to it, the poem might change, and vice versa. They inform each other, they contradict each other. The dialogue between the elements in this book form an argument, which points to a larger dilemma. The book stresses the importance not only of photography and poetry in our lives but the importance of looking at the world, reading the world, arguing with the world, figuring out your position in the world, which is undoubtedly unique, and asking yourself, What is this life?<\/p>\n

Nicole Rudick is the managing editor of <\/em>The Paris Review.<\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

A few weeks before the end of 2014, Aaron Stern and Jordan Sullivan wrote me to request permission to reprint the poem \u201cMy Gift to You,\u201d by Roberto Bola\u00f1o, which was published in our Summer 2012 issue. Stern and Jordan, both of whom are photographers, had recently opened a small space called 205-A in which […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":54,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[907],"tags":[22706,22711,22714,22707,5006,22715,22705,22713,100,165,22708,24,22712,12703,22710,22709],"class_list":["post-99099","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-at-work","tag-aaron-stern","tag-alan-shapiro","tag-alex-webb","tag-arseny-tarkovsky","tag-david-wagoner","tag-ed-van-der-elsken","tag-jordan-sullivan","tag-michael-collier","tag-photography","tag-poetry","tag-rebecca-norris-webb","tag-roberto-bolano","tag-rose-mclarney","tag-stephen-spender","tag-tom-sleigh","tag-will-schutt"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"\nAn Interview with Aaron Stern and Jordan Sullivan<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"The photographers 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