{"id":44924,"date":"2013-01-16T11:34:24","date_gmt":"2013-01-16T16:34:24","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/?p=44924"},"modified":"2013-01-29T03:06:47","modified_gmt":"2013-01-29T08:06:47","slug":"tender-spirits-a-conversation-with-marie-helene-bertino","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/2013\/01\/16\/tender-spirits-a-conversation-with-marie-helene-bertino\/","title":{"rendered":"Tender Spirits: A Conversation with Marie-Helene Bertino"},"content":{"rendered":"

\"\"<\/a><\/p>\n

In October, Marie-Helene Bertino published her debut collection of short stories, <\/em>Safe as Houses. Her writing often involves fantastical elements\u2014an embodied idea of an ex-boyfriend, an alien who faxes observations about human beings to her home planet, a woman who brings Bob Dylan home for Thanksgiving dinner\u2014that advance painful story lines. Her language is spare, direct, and hilarious, which makes the characters\u2019 losses that much more deeply felt. Bertino is now at work on a novel centering on a jazz club in Philadelphia called the Cat\u2019s Pajamas.<\/em><\/p>\n

<\/em><\/p>\n

We spoke for two hours in a Brooklyn coffee shop, which was flooded with girls on their lunch break from school. <\/em><\/p>\n

<\/strong><\/p>\n

Reading Safe as Houses<\/em>, I was struck by the number of characters who aren\u2019t really seen by others. By the last few stories, the characters start to become more visible. Does that theme ring true to you?<\/strong><\/p>\n

<\/strong><\/p>\n

I would totally agree with that, though I was not conscious of it. I was aware that a lot of characters were on the outskirts of something\u2014of their towns, their groups of friends, their families, their societies. And at the risk of sounding clich\u00e9, I think that\u2019s a metaphor for being a writer. I mean literally and figuratively\u2014you have to stand on the outside to watch a group of people and then be able to write about them, but in practice, it\u2019s also a solitary art, as they say. And I think that those characters definitely are a reflection of that kind of observer quality in me.<\/p>\n

<\/p>\n

Is that a quality you developed as a writer, or is that the way you are and writing fits that part of your personality? <\/strong><\/p>\n

I think it\u2019s a little from column A and a little from column B. I was very, very shy growing up. I was petrified of people outside my family. I wasn\u2019t the kind of little kid who could run into the store to get something for my mom\u2014she would have to actually talk me through it. I would say, What\u2019s going to happen if I go inside? and she would say, Just go up to the counter. And I would say, What do I say? Just say, \u201cI would like to buy so-and-so for my mom.\u201d What if I don\u2019t have enough money? What if he asks me for change? Once in a while, I still have to walk myself through something beforehand to get the courage to do it. In grade school, there was still a lot of social fear, and writing definitely helped. Writing helps now. Even as a kid, there was a life I knew I wanted to have and it involved meeting as many people as I could. In the story \u201cSometimes You Break Their Hearts, Sometimes They Break Yours,\u201d the alien says she used to lie in bed and figure out how she could know everyone in the world. That\u2019s what I used to do.<\/p>\n

And writing is a way of reaching people that you don\u2019t have the courage to talk to?<\/strong><\/p>\n

A hundred million percent. If someone gets in touch with me and says, I read this and it moved me, I feel like crying.<\/p>\n

Do you feel that when people read these stories, they\u2019re seeing your genuine self in a way?<\/strong><\/p>\n

<\/strong><\/p>\n

I would say yes. And I would say if these stories succeed at all, and if any story succeeds at all, it\u2019s because they come from an authentic place. That\u2019s one thing about being a Philly girl, which I am\u2014you have an absolute aversion, you\u2019re allergic, to phoniness. I know that my writing has flaws, but one flaw that, by the time it\u2019s published, it hopefully does not have, is inauthenticity. I think you can read phoniness in a second in fiction. It\u2019s actually tremendously easy to write mean fiction with selfish people making selfish choices about selfish things. It\u2019s much harder to write well-developed, complicated, contradictory characters.<\/p>\n

Would you call the not-realistic elements of your stories sci-fi, fantasy, magical realism \u2026?<\/strong><\/p>\n

<\/strong><\/p>\n

I would describe them as enhanced realism. I think of it in terms of paintings. Ren\u00e9 Magritte has these paintings of houses at night, and they\u2019re realistic houses\u2014nothing is overlarge, nothing is floating\u2014but because of his color choice, like a black house and an otherworldly light sky, there is a surreality there. But in a Salvador Dal\u00ed painting, figures are elongated, clocks are dripping, skies are crying, everything is nuts. It\u2019s a matter of degrees. <\/p>\n

Why do you use enhanced realism in your stories?<\/strong><\/p>\n

<\/strong><\/p>\n

Probably the number one reason, if I\u2019m being honest, is it\u2019s fun. It keeps me interested and engaged in my work, but I don\u2019t think it works unless it serves the story. So in \u201cNorth of,\u201d Bob Dylan is there, and that\u2019s a fun little effect, but I think it would come off as a gimmick if he didn\u2019t fully represent the rift between the brother and sister. And \u201cIdea of Marcel\u201d is the only time I\u2019ve ever written about how I feel about romantic love, and I decided to do that by presenting the physical manifestation of someone\u2019s idea of her ex-boyfriend. But if he wasn\u2019t an actual metaphor that was linked to some real emotional resonance, then it would just be cheap. Enhanced realists have a double responsibility\u2014our stories have to work on the literal level and on the figurative level. <\/p>\n

Another incredibly important element is that, for me, writing a simple story where nothing magic happens and no one turns into a refrigerator wasn\u2019t the way I felt equipped to get to the specific truth of how ridiculous the world can be. When I wanted to write about the feeling I have had of finding a group of friends you fall in love with immediately, I skipped a step, and instead of making them feel<\/em> magical and writing a touching story about coming of age, I made them actually<\/em> magical. I\u2019ve always wished the world was a little more kind to tender spirits, was a little more magical. I can\u2019t control the world, but I can control the stories in my book and the world I create.<\/p>\n

There\u2019s despair throughout the book, and loneliness, but it\u2019s also hilariously funny. How did you integrate those two sensations?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Like magic, humor is a key to certain locks that straightforward storytelling can\u2019t open. There were many things I had to take out because they were just there to be funny. But I don\u2019t think there is any better way of talking about the most depraved human behavior than to, in some way, make it light and funny, or at least juxtapose it. It doesn\u2019t paint despair with the one brush of, Oh, my God, this is so sad, we should all be crying. Humor brings out not only that but also the little nuances\u2014Isn\u2019t the world ridiculous? Isn\u2019t this just absurd? If your house burns down, and you go to the diner because you don\u2019t have a kitchen anymore and they say, \u201cSmoking or non,\u201d and you\u2019re sitting there basically charred and cindered, that\u2019s funny, and it\u2019s also really sad. You can also go a lot further if you\u2019re intercutting severe sadness with humor. [Swell of noise from the lunchtime gang.<\/em>] Like right now we\u2019re having this interview, and there are these screaming tweens. That\u2019s ridiculous and totally awesome at the same time.<\/p>\n

Your writing has a very clean cadence to it. Do you read your stories aloud when you\u2019re editing?<\/strong><\/p>\n

<\/strong><\/p>\n

Yes, it\u2019s one of the last things I do as I\u2019m revising. I\u2019m working on a novel now, and I took a week and rented a room down on the beach to just sit there with my dog and read it out loud. Everyone should read their work out loud. Everyone. It is unbelievable how many mistakes you pick up on.<\/p>\n

What\u2019s the process of going from a blank page to a finished story or book? <\/strong><\/p>\n

Well, one or two of the stories in Safe as Houses<\/em> came out whole. I almost dreamed them and woke up with full sentences in my head. When that happens, I feel like I\u2019m getting away with something, and that\u2019s the part of the process that feels kind of touched. But that\u2019s 1 percent of the time\u20145 percent, maybe\u2014and the rest of it is just hard work and showing up every day to keep pounding away.<\/p>\n

I\u2019m sure some people are naturally more creative than others, but I also feel like, to be a successful fiction writer, you need to be able to access your subconscious in a way that most people can\u2019t. Do you think so?<\/strong><\/p>\n

<\/strong><\/p>\n

One of the major things I think you need, as a writer, is to know yourself. By knowing your flaws and what you\u2019re good at, knowing what you need to work on, you can trust yourself. You can\u2019t access your subconscious unless you know yourself well enough to trust it.<\/p>\n

And are not afraid of what you\u2019re going to find there?<\/strong><\/p>\n

<\/strong><\/p>\n

You have to leap. In my best moments, I am able to trust my subconscious, but you have to, you must, you must<\/em> know yourself to be able to get to that. Your story might not be the best story ever written. All you\u2019re trying to do is write the best story you can and make your voice as true to itself as possible. I\u2019m an oddball, and I\u2019m an oddball because I listen to the particular weird rhythms of my weird person.<\/p>\n

In one interview, you said, \u201cA lot of people can be nice, but being kind is being nice when it costs you something.\u201d Can you explain that?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Not everyone who is nice is kind. Everyone who is kind, I would say, is nice. Implied in the word kind is being giving. I was raised to be both, and it is a really high bar. I almost wish I wasn\u2019t sometimes. There have been moments in my life where I wished for the kind of armor that other people seemed to have. Today, in my right mind, feeling good, having a pretty good year, I would never be anything but kind, but it hurts to be kind sometimes.<\/p>\n

When I was a little girl, there was a place called Beauty Land in Northeast Philly. They had an enormous wall of all different perfumes. To a little girl, it was this shining diamond. My mom worked very hard, and we didn\u2019t have many moments of pure frivolity. One day, she takes me to Beauty Land, and we\u2019re spraying perfumes, and my mom puts on this weird Julia Child voice when she\u2019s being silly, and I\u2019m laughing and we\u2019re having a great time. This old man comes up, and I remember his face being so miserable, like a rotten old apple. And he says, \u201cAfter seven scents, a human nose can\u2019t process any more scents. So you\u2019re spraying yourselves, but you\u2019re really not smelling anything.\u201d And I fill up with tears, and I say, \u201cMom, why did he just say that?\u201d and she says, \u201cYou know, honey, sometimes people get very suspicious when other people seem happy.\u201d And I\u2019ve never forgotten that.<\/p>\n

Some of the stories in Safe as Houses <\/em>were rejected many times. <\/strong><\/p>\n

<\/strong><\/p>\n

Yes. When I found out I won the Iowa Short Fiction Award in January, I don\u2019t want to say that I had completely given up on the collection, but I was exploring different routes to publishing a book. \u201cSafe as Houses\u201d was rejected fifty times. \u201cNorth of\u201d was rejected thirty-six times. Certainly there was absolutely nothing on earth telling me to keep going as far as literary magazines were concerned.<\/p>\n

How were you were able to persevere through that many rejections?<\/strong><\/p>\n

<\/strong><\/p>\n

Stubborn, blind tenacity. <\/p>\n

I think it came from my upbringing, to be completely honest. As a Philly girl, you feel like, to succeed, you have to work and work and work. Nothing will be handed to you, nothing is a guarantee, there\u2019s no safety. The only thing you can control is how hard you work. Plus, there was just something in me, from the time I was four, that always wanted to be a writer. Even if no one agreed with me, and even if I got support from nowhere. Sometimes I\u2019d get a rejection that would put me in bed because I got my hopes up for one particular thing, so I\u2019m not saying I\u2019m impenetrable, but I have thick calluses for rejection. For the most part, they glance off me, and I send the story to ten more magazines.<\/p>\n

Growing up in a particular place does affect a person, but I think it also depends on your specific upbringing. Were your parents an example in that way?<\/strong><\/p>\n

<\/strong><\/p>\n

Oh, absolutely. I was raised by a single mom, and she worked with people with severe mental disabilities, and she had a thirty-seven-year career in an industry that people normally burn out in after ten or so years because it\u2019s an emotionally challenging field. In those thirty-seven years\u2014and I\u2019m not kidding you\u2014she didn\u2019t take one sick day. Not one. There was a blizzard in Philadelphia, it must have been three feet high, and it blocked the door. She kicked out the screen of the door, climbed out onto the snow and walked to work\u2014I think it was two miles\u2014in the snow. When you\u2019re raised with that kind of work ethic, you feel lazy a lot.<\/p>\n

I feel lazy hearing that story. <\/strong><\/p>\n

I feel lazy right now telling it!<\/p>\n

How difficult has it been to be a writer, monetarily?<\/strong><\/p>\n

<\/strong><\/p>\n

Supporting yourself through fiction writing is like seeing a white whale. It\u2019s just impossible unless you get to a certain level. I\u2019ve normally had either one full-time job or several part-time jobs. It\u2019s definitely a labor of love in that way. That said, if all I did was write all day, I would go insane. Plus, what would I write about? I\u2019d have no human interaction. I love my job now because I meet all different kinds of people, and that keeps the engine of my inspiration going.<\/p>\n

Where do you work?<\/strong><\/p>\n

<\/strong><\/p>\n

I work for a law firm that specializes in traumatic brain injury. My job is to write the clients\u2019 life stories, and to do that, I interview them\u2014if they\u2019re able to be interviewed\u2014and their friends and family. It could be mild TBI, where I could have a conversation with them and they wouldn\u2019t be exhibiting any symptoms, to TBI with slurred speech and very evident slowing of thought. Many times, with mild TBI, they\u2019ll be going along fine and then they\u2019ll get stuck\u2014they\u2019ll forget words, names, dates of things that are very significant in their lives. It\u2019s incredibly frustrating for them. Often, people drop out of their lives one by one, and they end up alone. I\u2019ve learned that two enormous human fears are immobility and isolation, and normally both happen in varying degrees to these clients, so the people who are the most hurt, the most vulnerable, are the people who encounter the most alienation. That, to me, is endlessly sad.<\/p>\n

In one interview, you were asked what advice you\u2019d give to young writers, and you said, \u201cBe in the world.\u201d <\/strong><\/p>\n

<\/strong><\/p>\n

I do think empathy is an enormous tool for a writer to be able to access, and I think that also goes along with the kindness and the vulnerability associated with both. The problems you have as a human being will show up in your writing, and the talents you have as a human being will benefit you as a writer. So you have to cultivate yourself to be a good citizen of humanity, and that will feed into your writing. That is what I believe.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

In October, Marie-Helene Bertino published her debut collection of short stories, Safe as Houses. Her writing often involves fantastical elements\u2014an embodied idea of an ex-boyfriend, an alien who faxes observations about human beings to her home planet, a woman who brings Bob Dylan home for Thanksgiving dinner\u2014that advance painful story lines. 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