{"id":156310,"date":"2021-12-07T16:04:10","date_gmt":"2021-12-07T21:04:10","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/?p=156310"},"modified":"2021-12-12T13:00:48","modified_gmt":"2021-12-12T18:00:48","slug":"reading-upside-down-a-conversation-with-rose-wylie","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/2021\/12\/07\/reading-upside-down-a-conversation-with-rose-wylie\/","title":{"rendered":"Reading Upside Down: A Conversation with Rose Wylie"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"\"<\/a>

Rose Wylie, Hold the Right Rail, 2021, oil on canvas in two parts, 184 x 311 cm. Courtesy of the artist and David Zwirner.<\/p><\/div>\n

Rose Wylie, whose watercolor <\/em>Two Red Cherries appears on the cover of the <\/em>Review\u2019s Winter issue, lives in a cottage in Kent, England, that smells of firewood. A treacherous, narrow staircase leads up to a small studio. (\u201cHold the rail!\u201d Wylie warned me.) Her large, funny, vibrant figurative paintings\u2014made on unprimed, unstretched canvas\u2014cover the walls and floor. When I visited on a recent Saturday afternoon, as Storm Arwen brewed outside, she told me she had spent the first years of her life in India, where her father worked as an engineer. The family moved back to England during the Second World War. Wylie studied at an art school in Kent and then a teacher-training program at Goldsmiths where, at nineteen, she met her husband, the painter Roy Oxlade. She put her own professional ambitions aside to raise their children, channeling her artistic energies, she said, into \u201csoups, jam, clothes, curtains, and Christmas cards.\u201d In her forties, she completed a degree at the Royal College of Art, and worked in relative obscurity until eventually, in her late seventies, her career started to take off, with solo exhibitions at Tate Britain and elsewhere. We talked at her kitchen table, drinking Lapsang tea. The mince pies I\u2019d brought from London had crumbled on the journey, which seemed to delight her.<\/em><\/p>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

How did people respond to your work in the early years?<\/p>\n

WYLIE<\/p>\n

I got very little response. I was considered a mother and a wife, married to an artist who was more prominent, and so whatever I did didn\u2019t get a lot of recognition. That made me want to do it more, and more defiantly. I just thought, Bugger this! It was an impetus.<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/a>

Photo: Emily Stokes<\/p><\/div>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

How did you develop your style?<\/p>\n

WYLIE<\/p>\n

Look at that painting behind the dining table. That was one of my early ones, and it could just as well have been done yesterday. It\u2019s peculiar to me when critics say that my paintings are naive or childish. I choose to work in a way I find exciting. \u201cNaive\u201d would be making unformed judgements, with no intellectual framework. Why is it childish, just because it doesn\u2019t happen to look like a da Vinci or a Rembrandt?<\/p>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

Why did you choose to make such big paintings?<\/p>\n

WYLIE<\/p>\n

I think it was a reaction against having learned to paint on a small easel\u2014or perhaps against the idea that, unlike a male artist, a woman should be happy to do a little picture on the kitchen table. It was a sign of belief in what I did. Sometimes an artist will invent a constraint or difficulty to make his work less slick or more powerful, more grounded in reality\u2014I didn\u2019t have to do that. The difficulty was already there. I\u2019d be in the shed in the winter, in a howling gale, wearing a big coat, sizing up these huge canvases, trying to staple them to the walls. Sometimes the canvases would blow off and wrap themselves around me.<\/p>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

Where do you think your self-belief came from?<\/p>\n

WYLIE<\/p>\n

My mother was born in 1885, and esteem was allocated to the sons, and after that it was given by age. I was the youngest of seven, and a girl, so I had no position. Some people are born with prime time. I didn\u2019t have that. I made my own games. I didn\u2019t expect to be taken to places for amusement, or given treats. That was a great freedom. I just thought, Well, if I don\u2019t do things my own way, then there\u2019s no hope.<\/p>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

Was it difficult to be married to a painter in the years when you weren\u2019t painting yourself?<\/p>\n

WYLIE<\/p>\n

It was okay because I read all the time\u2014Dostoyevsky and Chekhov, Mallarm\u00e9, Proust, Flaubert, Stendhal, Balzac. Roy and I would go to see shows, and artists would come to visit us. I wasn\u2019t actually putting the brush on the canvas, but I\u2019ve always done a bit of drawing, and I would draw and paint with the children. And I thought my husband was great. We were huge mates. He was dynamic, moody, attractive, funny. I\u2019d do the meals\u2014Roy liked small quantities of food, beautifully presented\u2014but I would also make my own arrangements. I\u2019m used to doing my own thing as well as the other person\u2019s. When I was little, four or five, I learned to read upside down from looking at the book my brother was holding. He always had the book the right way up, so he could only read that way. I could do both.<\/p>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

Did you and your husband have very different ways of working?<\/p>\n

WYLIE<\/p>\n

Roy was very ordered. I called him a good Bauhaus boy\u2014he was all about form following function. His driving force was rationality whereas mine was a more female intelligence. I sometimes think of that artist who made casts from piss holes in the snow\u2014Helen Chadwick. The man\u2019s is a deep hole, very focused; the woman\u2019s is more scattered and covers more ground. That was like us. Roy was Plato and I was Aristotle. He didn\u2019t like imperfection. I don\u2019t mind imperfection at all, only I don\u2019t call it imperfection\u2014I call it \u201cwearing out\u201d or \u201cit\u2019s got a stain on it\u201d or \u201cit\u2019s falling apart.\u201d Like your mince pie. Roy was always trying to find the ideal subject. I saw subjects everywhere. You use what you\u2019ve got. It could be a crack in the floor, a fingernail, a gooseberry cutting. You know when you clip the tops off, and you have a little pile of tops and tails? I used to think they were stunning.<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/a>

Photo: Emily Stokes<\/p><\/div>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

Have you always made work from observation?<\/p>\n

WYLIE<\/p>\n

Yes. I maintain that figuration is more difficult than abstraction. People tell me I\u2019m just being controversial, but figuration can be so bad and so distorted, so simpering or too elegant. With abstraction you haven\u2019t quite got those problems. Maybe that is<\/em> the problem of abstraction\u2014that you haven\u2019t got the problems.<\/p>\n

You see these twigs out here? I\u2019ve drawn little birds that sit on those twigs, from underneath. That\u2019s a japonica. It\u2019s related to the quince. The fruit are coral-colored, and there were thirty-seven of them on the ground this year. Never before have I had any. They were like golden apples, Aphrodite stuff. When I make a painting, I observe, but I also transform. You\u2019re observing that they are this color, this shape, this size. They look like this, they feel like this, they smell like this. And then you try to put those things together in a painting.<\/p>\n

Recently I\u2019ve been painting a woman I saw running down the hill with her dog on a leash behind her. She was running with her knees right up, and leaning back because of the hill, and she formed such a strong image in my mind. That pose reminded me of an Assyrian sculpture. The first painting I did of her, I didn\u2019t have the leg right, so I did another one.<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/a>

Photo: Emily Stokes<\/p><\/div>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

What are you thinking about while you paint?<\/p>\n

WYLIE<\/p>\n

Not much. Sometimes I speak to myself. I say, \u201cGet it off, get it off.\u201d Or \u201cScrape it off, get rid of it.\u201d Or \u201cPut it back.\u201d I swear quite a bit.<\/p>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

What kind of swearing?<\/p>\n

WYLIE<\/p>\n

I usually say \u201cFuck!\u201d\u2014because something has gone wrong, and I think, Now it\u2019s horrible, I hate it! It was alright before, why didn\u2019t I fucking leave it alone?<\/p>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

How long is a painting session?<\/p>\n

WYLIE<\/p>\n

It\u2019s so variable. Sometimes I\u2019ll go up to my studio and do something in ten minutes and come down again. On other days I\u2019ll go into the studio at about ten or half-past ten, and then miss lunch and go on till three, maybe have a late lunch and go on straight through the evening. Or I\u2019ll have some supper and a glass of wine and then go back to the studio and think, Shit, it\u2019s not right, I can\u2019t leave it like that! And then I\u2019ll try to get it right, and work until three in the morning, and it\u2019ll go even more wrong. Some people say, \u201cYou must be having a whale of a time doing just what you want to do,\u201d but it\u2019s not like that. You\u2019re always frightened to start\u2014you don\u2019t want to because it\u2019s too difficult. It\u2019s much easier to look out of the window or read a book. But then, when you\u2019re actually in it, you escape from everything. You escape from climate change, people dying of famine, cows dropping dead. I hate the whole business of what\u2019s happening in the world. My politics are green. We should eat local stuff, carrots and swedes. Not cherries from Washington\u2014how obscene.<\/p>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

Tell me about the cherries in the painting we used on the cover of the Winter issue. Where did they come from?<\/p>\n

WYLIE<\/p>\n

There were a lot of wild cherries growing at the top of the garden, very dark red. I think they\u2019re completely beautiful, cherries. They made me think of those sixteenth-century Spanish still life paintings. I like the way they hang in doubles. If you look at the painting, it\u2019s like two breasts with large nipples.<\/p>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

I saw that you had recently painted your cat, Pete. Did the pandemic affect what you painted or how you worked?<\/p>\n

WYLIE<\/p>\n

This is a highly intelligent cat. Watch him. Do you want supper, Pete? Did you see? He understands the word. Sometimes he jumps up onto my shoulder, and he puts one paw on one side and another paw on the other side, and he puts his arms around me. I know cats are affectionate, but this one is extraordinary.<\/p>\n

As to the pandemic, I\u2019m often here by myself so in fact there was very little difference. The only problem was that at one point my assistants couldn\u2019t come to collect my paintings, so I would just staple one canvas on top of another on the wall. Having a piece of work superimposed onto another unrelated one like that led to something new, where I started to make paintings that had abrupt changes of image on the same canvas. Eventually my assistants came over wearing gloves and masks to collect the canvases. I left them little diagrams to show them what to do with each one. I actually liked those drawings. They were part of the pandemic and they became part of the work.<\/p>\n

INTERVIEWER<\/p>\n

How do you feel when a painting leaves your studio?<\/p>\n

WYLIE<\/p>\n

I think, Well, thank heavens that\u2019s done. I always want my paintings to go into a museum. That is what all artists want. Although private collections are good, too. That gives you money. My paint bills are huge!<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/a>

Photo: Emily Stokes<\/p><\/div>\n

 <\/p>\n

Emily Stokes is the editor of <\/em>The Paris Review.<\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

The Review’s editor visits Rose Wylie, whose painting adorns the cover of the Winter issue.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":309,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[1857],"tags":[30222,29907,68307,27709,4154,1445],"class_list":["post-156310","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-studio-visit","tag-artist-studio","tag-british","tag-cherries","tag-figurative-painting","tag-paintings","tag-winter-issue"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"\nReading Upside Down: A Conversation with Rose Wylie by Emily Stokes<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"December 7, 2021 \u2013 The Review's editor visits Rose Wylie, whose painting adorns the cover of the Winter issue.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" 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