{"id":126709,"date":"2018-06-25T11:00:20","date_gmt":"2018-06-25T15:00:20","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/?p=126709"},"modified":"2018-06-27T12:41:50","modified_gmt":"2018-06-27T16:41:50","slug":"heros-journey-an-interview-with-taylor-mac","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/2018\/06\/25\/heros-journey-an-interview-with-taylor-mac\/","title":{"rendered":"Hero\u2019s Journey: An Interview with Taylor Mac"},"content":{"rendered":"<div id=\"attachment_126792\" style=\"width: 7306px\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/taylor-mac-act-7-quick-7.jpg\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-126792\" class=\"size-full wp-image-126792\" src=\"https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/taylor-mac-act-7-quick-7.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"7296\" height=\"4869\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/taylor-mac-act-7-quick-7.jpg 7296w, https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/taylor-mac-act-7-quick-7-300x200.jpg 300w, https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/taylor-mac-act-7-quick-7-768x513.jpg 768w, https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/taylor-mac-act-7-quick-7-1024x683.jpg 1024w\" sizes=\"auto, (min-width: 62.5em) 67vw, 100vw\" \/><\/a><p id=\"caption-attachment-126792\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">Taylor Mac in act 7 of <em>A\u00a024-Decade History of Popular Music<\/em>, at St. Ann\u2019s Warehouse, Brooklyn, 2016. Photo: Teddy Wolff.<\/p><\/div>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In October 2016, at St. Ann\u2019s Warehouse in Brooklyn, the theater artist Taylor Mac performed<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u00a0A<\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u00a0<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">24-Decade History of Popular Music<\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> in its entirety for the first and only time. The show, which Mac had been developing since 2012, retells American history through its popular music, spending an hour on each decade, beginning in 1776 and ending in 2016. The <\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">New York Times<\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> music critic Wesley Morris wrote that the twenty-four-hour performance\u2014which featured a glow-in-the-dark production of <\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Mikado<\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, visionary costumes by Mac\u2019s longtime collaborator Machine Dazzle, and a large penis-shaped balloon\u2014was \u201cone of the great experiences of my life.\u201d In 2017, the work was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize in Drama, and Mac received a MacArthur Fellowship.<\/span><\/i><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><i>The University of Iowa\u2019s Hancher Auditorium commissioned the 1864-to-1856 decade of <\/i>A<\/span><i>\u00a0<\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">24-Decade History<\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, and in April 2018, Mac performed an abridged version of the work in Iowa City. Two days before the performance, I interviewed Mac at Hancher\u2019s Strauss Hall for the Creative Matters Lecture Series. The exchange below is an edited version of that discussion, with thanks to the University of Iowa. <\/span><\/i><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">INTERVIEWER<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I want to start with a personal story. Taylor and I just met for the first time, but we have some friends in common, one of them being my best friend and really the center of my queer family for twenty years. He was at the epic twenty-four-hour performance of <em>A<\/em><\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u00a024-Decade History of Popular Music<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> in New York in October 2016. It was an experience that changed his life.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">At one point in <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A 24-Decade History<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, there\u2019s a horrifyingly homophobic Ted Nugent song about fag bashing, which Taylor turns into a slow dance at a junior-high queer prom. Taylor asked everyone in the audience to dance with a same-sex partner they didn\u2019t know. My friend danced with a good-looking guy sitting in his row, and he said it was the most extraordinary experience. At first, everyone was giggling, and Taylor was quite severe with them and made them stop and said, No, take it seriously. And my friend said that over the course of this dance, he felt something profound happen between him and this other man, something that felt real to him. Over the next six months, he left his partner of thirteen years, he found this man, discovered that, in fact, something profound <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">had<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> happened between them, and last week they moved in together. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So my first question is, Taylor, does this happen often? And, since I think the answer to that is going to be some species of yes, is it part of the design?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">MAC<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, I don\u2019t set out to break people up. My job as a theater artist is to remind people of the things they\u2019ve forgotten, dismissed, or buried, or that other people have buried for them. It sounds like your friend came to the show having some problems with his boyfriend and our show unearthed things in him, and then he was able to grapple with that truth about himself. If I can do that for people, that\u2019s a real joy because I don\u2019t believe that he\u2019d be served staying with his former lover and not loving him. Nor do I think the former lover would be served by that. So no, it isn\u2019t the first time. There are babies who are alive right now because of people who met at our shows.\u00a0<\/span><!--more--><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It\u2019s also happened with my play <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Lily\u2019s Revenge<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. People would hook up as a result of hanging out together. When you get people to hang out together and you create an environment where it\u2019s much like a wedding, where people oftentimes will hook up or break up, it creates a ritual in which they are allowed to express the full range of themselves instead of just one aspect. Church and sporting events are often two dominant rituals in our culture, and both of those things ask you to root for one team. Theater can get you to express the full range of your humanity, so it\u2019s a ritual that allows for more complexity than a sporting event or church, in my estimation.<\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">INTERVIEWER<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You\u2019ve called <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A 24-Decade History<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> a \u201cRadical Faerie Realness Ritual.\u201d Who are the Radical Faeries, and what does a Radical Faerie Realness Ritual mean to you?<\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">MAC<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Radical Faeries were created by a group of gay men, including Harry Hay, who got together and said, How can we define the way we live in the world based on our understanding of the world as queers? So it was about radical sex, radical communication, radical consent, radical food practices. It\u2019s queer in the grand scheme of queer. And now it\u2019s not just gay men. There are women and trans people involved. It\u2019s much more expansive. They have, I think, the longest running commune in America, called Short Mountain\u2014four hundred drag queens in the woods of rural Tennessee. I don\u2019t want to tell you too much about it because it feels like a private thing, but they\u2019re some of the most wonderful human beings I\u2019ve ever met. I\u2019ve been hanging out with them for twenty-five years now in New York City, and I\u2019ve been down to the Mountain a couple times. I call myself a Radical Faerie associate.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was at Short Mountain when I realized what form I wanted for this particular show, and I wanted to give them credit for that and celebrate that community by calling out that we were doing this ritual.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_126796\" style=\"width: 3917px\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/taylor-mac-quick-12.jpg\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-126796\" class=\"size-full wp-image-126796\" src=\"https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/taylor-mac-quick-12.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"3907\" height=\"2600\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/taylor-mac-quick-12.jpg 3907w, https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/taylor-mac-quick-12-300x200.jpg 300w, https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/taylor-mac-quick-12-768x511.jpg 768w, https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/taylor-mac-quick-12-1024x681.jpg 1024w\" sizes=\"auto, (min-width: 62.5em) 67vw, 100vw\" \/><\/a><p id=\"caption-attachment-126796\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">Taylor Mac in act 1 of <em>A\u00a024-Decade History of Popular Music<\/em>, St. Ann\u2019s Warehouse, Brooklyn, 2016. Photo: Teddy Wolff.<\/p><\/div>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">INTERVIEWER<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Among the conditions for transformation seems to me to be a tolerance for failure. You\u2019ve talked about the ways in which you\u2019ve developed an aesthetic practice that builds failure in. You don\u2019t erase, for instance, so if you\u2019re putting on your makeup and something gets smudged, that has to become part of the face. And you\u2019ve talked about finding new ways to authentically fail onstage. How did you come to embrace failure as a legitimate aim of art?<\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">MAC<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You can\u2019t really be an artist and not embrace failure. Maybe someone can\u2014I don\u2019t see how I could. I once heard Brian Dennehy say that you have eight shows a week, and one\u2019s going to be your best and one\u2019s going to be your worst. I think of that in terms of a life commitment to the arts but also a life commitment to being present with people. You know one of your days is going to be the worst, one is going to be your best. If you think of it that way, it stops being a goal of only achieving good. What I\u2019ve learned by touring and performing and living a life as a performing artist is that when something bad happens, it\u2019s also an opportunity for something incredible to happen. Sometimes it happens in the next moment, and other times it happens in the next week, in the next performance. I call it incorporating calamity, and it\u2019s about transforming it\u2014when something horrible happens, you turn it into something useful. That\u2019s what the entire show is about\u2014how communities are torn apart but because they\u2019re torn apart, they\u2019re also rebuilt. That has happened in the United States over and over again. It comes from the <small>AIDS<\/small> activism I saw, where an entire queer community is devastated by the epidemic and by the government\u2019s response to it and by their families\u2019 response to them. But meanwhile, they\u2019re building themselves because they\u2019re all gathered to fight this thing together and to take care of each other.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">My favorite artists are people who are willing to be human and have flaws in their performances\u2014from Maria Callas to Nina Simone. They\u2019re willing to risk something that\u2019s off pitch or that\u2019s kind of wrong in order to make something more communal and, I would argue, real. But that\u2019s not to say that reaching for the hem of God, reaching for perfection, reaching for virtuosity isn\u2019t also gorgeous. I like to combine the two so that you see the virtuosity next to the thing that\u2019s completely flawed.<\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">INTERVIEWER<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One aspect of your virtuosity that I particularly admire and am sensitive to is your singing. My first education in the arts was as an opera singer, and I\u2019ve listened obsessively to the album of <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Be(A)st of Taylor Mac<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.<\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">MAC<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That\u2019s so, so neurotic. I\u2019m so embarrassed by it. <\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">INTERVIEWER<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">No, it\u2019s fantastic! It seems to me a kind of taxonomy of vocal technique\u2014at one moment one\u2019s in the world of Woody Guthrie and the next in the world of Nina Simone and then an English choirboy and then Joan Sutherland and so on. It\u2019s an incredible range of styles. How did you start singing? It doesn\u2019t seem like the most obvious thing for a boy in Stockton, California, to do. <\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">MAC<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Credit my mom. She wasn\u2019t a professional singer and had no desire to be one, but she always sang around the house. The radio was always on, it was always that loud FM\u2014James Taylor, Carole King\u2014and we sang nonstop. Also, my grandmother lived in Southern California, and we lived in Central California, and my mom was a single mom, so there was a lot of driving back and forth and singing in the car. We were pretty poor, and there was never food in the refrigerator, but she still figured out a way to get me voice lessons. I had a mom who saw that I had something and had a desire for performance, and she encouraged it. So I took voice lessons from the age of thirteen to seventeen, and then I went to acting conservatory and learned stage voice technique. And then I just worked and worked and worked.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_126795\" style=\"width: 7250px\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/taylor-mac-act-2-30.jpg\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-126795\" class=\"size-full wp-image-126795\" src=\"https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/taylor-mac-act-2-30.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"7240\" height=\"4832\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/taylor-mac-act-2-30.jpg 7240w, https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/taylor-mac-act-2-30-300x200.jpg 300w, https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/taylor-mac-act-2-30-768x513.jpg 768w, https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/taylor-mac-act-2-30-1024x683.jpg 1024w\" sizes=\"auto, (min-width: 62.5em) 67vw, 100vw\" \/><\/a><p id=\"caption-attachment-126795\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">Taylor Mac in act 2 of <em>A\u00a024-Decade History of Popular Music<\/em>, St. Ann\u2019s Warehouse, Brooklyn, 2016. Photo: Teddy Wolff.<\/p><\/div>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">INTERVIEWER<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">At the end of the twenty-four hours, your voice must have been in a state it had never been in before. What was it like to make art with a totally unfamiliar instrument?<\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">MAC<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I\u2019m a storyteller\u2014I don\u2019t even really think of myself as a singer. I\u2019m up there telling stories, and I hope that I have a really good voice and I can hit the note and it can be very clear and it can have what they would call legit sound. But sometimes I don\u2019t want to have that sound because that will not tell the story I\u2019m trying to tell. So it\u2019s about juggling that difference, and we crafted the show so that we do many different kinds of singing throughout. But I knew I was going to get to the end at a certain point. I didn\u2019t even have an octave range, and so then how do I tell the story? But that\u2019s part of the art\u2014it\u2019s about deterioration. I think of it as a metaphor for how to deal with Donald Trump, honestly.<\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">INTERVIEWER<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What do you mean? <\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">MAC<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Everything\u2019s falling apart. How do you deal with the calamity? You\u2019ve got to turn it into something, and you\u2019ve got to use what you\u2019ve got. He\u2019s the president\u2014we can\u2019t deny it! One of the things I learned from performing in the clubs was that if something is threatening to take the story away from the storyteller, then you have to incorporate that threatening thing into the story, at all costs. If people were talking or screaming or heckling me or making out or having sex while I was performing, I\u2019d have to incorporate them into the performance. If everyone were watching the people having sex, then I\u2019d go over there and perform by them. And then the audience would think, Oh, look at that fabulous performer incorporate that thing! Oh, let me watch that performer some more. And then I could come back over here, and they\u2019d follow me. So that\u2019s how I feel about Donald Trump\u2014he doesn\u2019t get to be the lead in the story. He\u2019s trying to steal the American story from the American people. He\u2019s the grandest narcissist we have, and he\u2019s trying to make it only his story. We have to incorporate him but not let him take it over. <\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">INTERVIEWER<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Among all the virtuosity and failure in the art of Taylor Mac, there\u2019s also a profound sort of moral thinking or moral questioning happening. And one of the ways that happens, to stick with the voice for a moment, is the way in which you use voice to communicate emotion. Drag is a capacious art form, but there are some kinds of drag that restrict themselves to a narrow band of affect or of emotion, as is often the case on something like <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">RuPaul\u2019s Drag Race<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">,<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> for instance. But the way you use affect seems to me essential to the moral questioning that your work is engaged in. Your song <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u201c<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=6Q1-K1ht984\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">The Palace of the End<\/a>,<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u201d<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> from <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Be(A)st of Taylor Mac<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">,<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u00a0is an example. It begins with an astonishing set of facts, one of which is that Lynne Cheney wrote a lesbian romance novel, and also that Saddam Hussein wrote a romance novel.<\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">MAC<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It\u2019s called<\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Zabibah and the King<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.<\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">INTERVIEWER<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That weird historical convergence becomes an occasion for laughter, and as the song goes on, it draws a correlation or equivalence between the Cheney family of war criminals and the Hussein family of war criminals. That\u2019s a moral ground that feels pretty familiar\u2014I won\u2019t say comfortable\u2014to liberal thinking. But in fact, the song makes us experience, with a kind of radical swiftness I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve experienced before, not just humor and outrage and shock but also empathy and a recognition of a moral community and a refusal of comfort that comes from just exiling people from the human race. This happens so vertiginously that finally I feel like the floor falls out from beneath me and I\u2019m hanging over a moral abyss. Another great queer artist from the Central Valley of California, the poet Frank Bidart, has a poem about how to begin a work of art. He says, First, set up a situation, then reveal an abyss. Your art does that again and again, and it\u2019s essential not just to the aesthetic but to the moral work it wants to do. <\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">MAC<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It\u2019s a hero\u2019s journey. We\u2019re in the normal world and suddenly\u2014here\u2019s the outside world! It\u2019s very AABA, which is pop-culture songwriting 101. You set up the world, and then you get a little bored with the world, so you go on an adventure\u2014this is called the bridge. You go on a little bridge, and you cross into the outside world from your home, and you have an adventure, and then usually, Oh, something dangerous happens! There\u2019s a minor key! You go back home, and maybe it\u2019s a little different, and aren\u2019t we so happy that we\u2019re back home and we\u2019re safe? This is the structure of most of our storytelling, right? And most of our art reaffirms that home is the right place to be and the unknown is horrible. I\u2019m trying to make work that takes us from home to the bridge and then keeps going. And it\u2019s not that home is gone\u2014we have home with us everywhere we go. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That\u2019s a long way to say that yes, I want to break open into that abyss, and the unknown is worthy of our attention. <\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">INTERVIEWER<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the show, you find that abyss in history\u2014and in American history in particular. Part of your project is to pierce the sentimentality and nostalgia that usually structure our received narratives of America. You said that your job as a performance artist is to remind people of what they\u2019ve dismissed, forgotten, or buried, and you\u2019ve talked about <em>A<\/em><em>\u00a0<\/em><\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">24-Decade History<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> as being an attempt to recover, unearth, or reconstruct queer history. In your play <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hir<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, a transgender teenager says, \u201cThe past got stolen and I want to steal it back.\u201d But one of the painful things about the practice and discipline of queer history is how much empty space there is, how much has been lost, how many voices weren\u2019t preserved or were actively destroyed. How do you approach the research of constructing this history, and what do you do when you hit those walls of silence?<\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">MAC<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The history I\u2019m telling is subjective. What has been frustrating about the way historians talk about queerness has been that because there wasn\u2019t language for it, it didn\u2019t exist. So again and again and again, I read these biographies of Lincoln, and they\u2019ll say, Yes, Lincoln cuddled with a man in bed, and there were letters about how he cuddled with another man in bed, but that doesn\u2019t mean he was gay\u2014that was just a way people behaved back then. Then Steven Spielberg comes out with a movie, and the only scene that is a little queer is when Lincoln is touching some young intern\u2019s thigh, and the intern says, Do you want company? And he says, No, not tonight. Most straight people watch that scene and don\u2019t even know that anything happened. And all the queer people are like, That\u2019s all we got?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Why not just show him cuddling with another man and being romantic and kissing him on the neck\u2014just show that and let people decide. There\u2019s a real emphasis on trying to <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">prove<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> things, but we don\u2019t have to prove things, because we\u2019re here, because you and I are queer, which means we didn\u2019t invent it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">INTERVIEWER<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sometimes it feels like we need to prove it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">MAC<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We know about Plato, and we know about Socrates. We know that it started a long time ago and that it didn\u2019t just disappear. But of course, you\u2019ve got to go hunting for it. And I didn\u2019t want to do a <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hamilton<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> thing where you take all the straight people and make them gay. That\u2019s a valid approach, but that\u2019s not the way I wanted to do it. I\u2019m not really interested in making the past queer. I\u2019m interested in making the room right here queer. It\u2019s an invitation for you to consider something about yourself.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I once called this man up onstage\u2014he was maybe eighty, and we were in Florida, a red state, in Gainesville, a very red county. We\u2019re doing our thing together, and I say, You\u2019re going to be gay now. And he says, Oh no no no, and starts to walk off the stage. And I\u2019m like, Queen, get back here! We had to spend more time together, and it was ultimately fine and really fun. But his impulse was, No, that\u2019s not me! My job is to say, But maybe it is, for, like, an hour of your life. If you don\u2019t want it to be, why don\u2019t you want it to be? And why aren\u2019t you willing even to consider it? And what does that say about homophobia, and what does that say about history and the way we\u2019re raised? Not about sexual preference\u2014what does that say about socialization? That\u2019s what I\u2019m interested in. I can\u2019t do anything about the past, but I challenge historians to dig a little deeper and to open up their considerations.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_126797\" style=\"width: 7370px\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/taylor-mac-act-3-45.jpg\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-126797\" class=\"size-full wp-image-126797\" src=\"https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/taylor-mac-act-3-45.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"7360\" height=\"4912\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/taylor-mac-act-3-45.jpg 7360w, https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/taylor-mac-act-3-45-300x200.jpg 300w, https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/taylor-mac-act-3-45-768x513.jpg 768w, https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/taylor-mac-act-3-45-1024x683.jpg 1024w\" sizes=\"auto, (min-width: 62.5em) 67vw, 100vw\" \/><\/a><p id=\"caption-attachment-126797\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">Taylor Mac in act 3 of <em>A\u00a024-Decade History of Popular Music<\/em>, St. Ann\u2019s Warehouse, Brooklyn, 2016. Photo: Teddy Wolff.<\/p><\/div>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">INTERVIEWER<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Questions of identity are at the core of your work, not just in terms of subject matter but also in terms of aesthetic. It\u2019s a gloriously queer aesthetic. You even say at one point in <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Be(A)st of Taylor Mac<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> that you\u2019re writing for gay people.<\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">MAC<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There\u2019s a lot of pressure for minority artists and for women artists to make \u201cuniversal\u201d work, which means make work for straight white men. Or it\u2019s code for making work that the status quo will enjoy and can understand and relate to. But you don\u2019t go to the theater to experience what you already know. You go to experience something new or to be reminded about something you didn\u2019t know existed in yourself. And that doesn\u2019t mean you\u2019re going to go suck a dick.<\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">INTERVIEWER<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It might.<\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">MAC<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It might! It also might mean that if you\u2019re a man who\u2019s eighty years old, you\u2019ve never slow danced with another man in your life because you think of yourself as straight, and you <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">are<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> straight, but when you slow dance with another man for the first time in your life, doesn\u2019t that open something up in you? It doesn\u2019t mean you have to leave your wife and go be with a man for the rest of your life, but maybe now you have a better understanding of how the world works and a better understanding of how you work. Those are good things, and that\u2019s what the theater is for. <\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">INTERVIEWER<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">At the same time that the show is exploring identity, you\u2019ve also said how bored you are with identity politics.<\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">MAC<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ugh! Bleh! Ah! Ugh! <\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">INTERVIEWER<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Having lived in the show for so long, what do you now think about the dangers and possibilities of identity?<\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">MAC<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think if you decide, you can\u2019t change your mind. It\u2019s really great when people change their minds. I don\u2019t want to be like my mom, like, You\u2019re not going to be gay your whole life\u2014it\u2019s just a phase. What I mean is, if you spend a lot of time defining who you are, you\u2019re not spending that time paying attention. That\u2019s how I feel\u2014it doesn\u2019t have to be how everybody feels. I get why identity politics is a big deal right now. I champion it. I cheer people on to figure shit out. I just feel like my work is not about identity actually. Identity is always a theme, so it\u2019s always present, it\u2019s always declared, it\u2019s always a reference for contextualization. In the show, I talk about the Civil War, and I\u2019m a queer person who\u2019s a little male leaning and maybe a little not, you know. So we\u2019re going to talk about the Civil War from that context. But that doesn\u2019t mean that the show is about me being queer. The show is about communities building themselves as a result of falling apart. Identity is always present, but if you make it the main theme, it\u2019s less interesting.<\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">INTERVIEWER<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In some of the reading I\u2019ve been doing over the last few days, thinking about this conversation, someone said\u2014was it Charles Ludlam? I can\u2019t even remember\u2014that identity is like rocks in a stream and queerness is the water. This grand notion of queerness you\u2019re talking about imagines identity not as fixed or monolithic but as performative, as something that\u2019s mobile and wears away.<\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">MAC<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Right. I say that I\u2019m not male or female. My gender is performer\u2014because I feel that way! I feel like I perform gender all the time. So right now I\u2019m performing male leaning. And when I\u2019m onstage, I\u2019m performing some other thing that\u2019s not quite female, not quite male, you know? And other times in my life, I\u2019ve performed more female, whatever that means\u2014more feminine, more masculine. But I understand why people want to define it for themselves, and that has to do with their upbringing and the way they\u2019ve had to manage being in the world and how they feel at their core. I\u2019m not trying to define anybody else. <\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">INTERVIEWER<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I know there\u2019s a lot of celebration and play and joy in <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A 24-Decade History<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, but the affective subject matter is often guilt, shame, rage, and maybe, especially, mourning. Some of the big topics are slavery, the Trail of Tears, internment camps, tenements, the Civil War, <small>AIDS<\/small>. Much of the history that you tell, as we\u2019ve talked about, is history that has been repressed in favor of sentimental or nostalgic myths of America. Piercing those myths has been the project of much leftist and radical thinking in the United States for a long time, and now maybe people on the Left are facing the consequence of that project, which is, after having done the work of deconstructing myths America tells about itself, is there anything left to invest in? Is there a way to recuperate or reimagine the dream of America, let\u2019s say maybe Whitman\u2019s dream, or the dream that is necessary to any communal or national project? Which is also a way of asking you, What\u2019s next?<\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">MAC<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of the things I feel strongly about <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">24-Decade<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> and in working on my new play is that they don\u2019t just make a wish for the way the world could be but that they are actual manifestations of the way you want the world to be. I wanted to make a world where people consider things, where people hang out and spend time, where people make music together, where we use our bodies to understand history. So we made a show that does all those things, where we build ourselves because of the adversity. I also wanted to show that that <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">is<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> diversity. I couldn\u2019t just make a show about diversity and talk about diversity. The show had to <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">be<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> diverse. There are two hundred people in the show, and all different kinds of people made the show. So it\u2019s about just wishing for it\u2014it\u2019s here. You can point to it. And it\u2019s right here in this room. That doesn\u2019t mean it\u2019s the only thing in the world, but it is here. Political theater tends to call out what it wants the world to be, instead of making the world that it wants. I keep that in mind at the beginning of making a work. What kind of world do I want to live in? And that incorporates mourning\u2014I don\u2019t want a world that is Utopian. I want a world that says, This horrible thing happened, and what can we do? How can we build from that? So that when something horrible happens again, maybe it\u2019s less horrible because we have some techniques and we\u2019ve learned some things. That\u2019s my dream.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Garth Greenwell is the author of the novel\u00a0<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What Belongs to You<\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, which won the British Book Award for Debut of the Year, was long-listed for the National Book Award, and was a finalist for six other awards, including the PEN\/Faulkner Award, the James Tait Black Memorial Prize, and the\u00a0Los Angeles Times\u00a0Book Prize. His short fiction has appeared in\u00a0<\/span><\/i><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theparisreview.org\/fiction\/6314\/gospodar-garth-greenwell\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Paris Review<\/span><\/a><em>,<\/em><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u00a0<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The New Yorker<em>,<\/em><\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u00a0<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A Public Space<em>,<\/em><\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u00a0and\u00a0<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Vice<em>.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>&nbsp; In October 2016, at St. Ann\u2019s Warehouse in Brooklyn, the theater artist Taylor Mac performed\u00a0A\u00a024-Decade History of Popular Music in its entirety for the first and only time. The show, which Mac had been developing since 2012, retells American history through its popular music, spending an hour on each decade, beginning in 1776 and [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1251,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[907],"tags":[34535,5016,3784,1865,34436,775,19381,1886,33236,675,23472,34438,2861,8952,7092,27350,34435,34432,34443,24677,46,16090,642,1758,5862,432,1267,34427,34439,34437,10030,34433,34434,7669,13375,18274,11693,14881,8451,34426,34441,1637,34429,6174,44,34428,264,34430,34442,8093,34431],"class_list":["post-126709","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-at-work","tag-a-24-decade-history-of-popular-music","tag-abraham-lincoln","tag-aids","tag-american-civil-war","tag-brian-dennehy","tag-california","tag-donald-trump","tag-florida","tag-frank-bidart","tag-gender","tag-hamilton","tag-harry-hay","tag-history","tag-identity","tag-identity-politics","tag-internment-camps","tag-joan-sutherland","tag-lynne-cheney","tag-machine-dazzle","tag-maria-callas","tag-music","tag-myths","tag-nina-simone","tag-performance","tag-plato","tag-play","tag-pulitzer-prize","tag-queerness","tag-radical-faerie-realness-ritual","tag-radical-faeries","tag-romance-novels","tag-ru-paul","tag-ru-pauls-drag-race","tag-saddam-hussein","tag-singing","tag-slavery","tag-socrates","tag-songwriting","tag-steven-spielberg","tag-taylor-mac","tag-ted-nugent","tag-tennessee","tag-the-beast-of-taylor-mac","tag-the-mikado","tag-theater","tag-trail-of-tears","tag-walt-whitman","tag-war-criminals","tag-wesley-morris","tag-woody-guthrie","tag-zabibah-and-the-king"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- 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